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Welcome to Listen to your Skin by Moon and Skin, the podcast where science meets nature to celebrate the story of your skin.
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Your skin is a living canvas, ever evolving, deeply personal and uniquely yours.
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Each week, we'll dive into the science of healthy skin, share empowering stories and uncover transformative self-care rituals.
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We're here to help you embrace every phase of your journey with confidence and care.
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Hi everyone, Welcome back to Listen to your Skin podcast by Moon and Skin.
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Confidence and care.
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Hi everyone, welcome back to Listen to your Skin podcast by Moon and Skin, and I'm your host board certified dermatologist, Dr Jen Haley, and today I'm excited to welcome Gabby to the show.
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She's a licensed esthetician based in Scottsdale, Arizona, and my esthetician.
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After struggling with her own skin for years, she made it her mission to educate and empower her clients with the knowledge and treatments they need to look and feel their best.
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Her specialty is creating customized skincare routines and delivering unforgettable facials that leave both your inner and outer self glowing.
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Today, she's here to share her expert insights on building an effective skincare routine, the power of professional in-office treatments and the self-care rituals that can make a difference.
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Welcome to the show, Gabby.
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Hi, nice to have you yeah.
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I love having you, so I'm so glad I've been looking forward to this conversation all week.
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Yes, and I want to first start with your journey.
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So we all have a journey of why we become or why we do what we do in life to give back to others.
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What is your personal skincare journey?
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My journey is a little different than others.
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I initially wanted to go into nursing, trying that field and having that realm of being interested in nursing.
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When you started nursing were you in college, and then you had an aha moment of thinking that you wanted to do something for someone's skin.
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Obviously you have a nurturing nature.
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No, for sure.
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I originally started doing competitive gymnastics as a coach, so I always wanted to help people and be in that realm working with others, and so when I thought about doing skincare I just knew I struggled with my skin myself.
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So after dabbling into that realm of nursing, I was like, well, maybe I want to do the approach of skincare and work on how I worked on myself and be able to learn how to provide that to others.
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Yeah, it's interesting because I wanted to be a pediatrician and then I realized, oh, I just think I like kids, but I like the problem-solving of dermatology and how the skin represents your internal health.
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But when I look back, I think often we go into areas where we need the most help and I was a really itchy kid.
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I was always itching.
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So what did you struggle with?
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Like what was your?
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What were your dermatology or your skin conditions that made you feel compassionate towards other people that were also dealing with it?
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Yeah, so when it came to acne, especially when I was a teen and struggling with that, there wasn't really too many options.
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It was either, you know, go to the drugstore and find a random ingredient or a random product to try on your skin.
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So there wasn't really that much advice or knowledge that you could reach at such a young age.
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So when I got older and I was still experiencing acne at that age from teens to adulthood I wanted to dabble in that and see what I could do to fix my skin and different ingredients to make it helpful for my skin.
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You clearly hacked it.
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So, I mean looking at your skin now.
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Nobody would ever know that you have acne, and I think it's so important for people to know who are struggling with it that just because you have it today doesn't mean you have to have it forever.
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So what are some of the types of acne that you see in your practice, or maybe that you have personally experienced, and what direction can people go, both at home and in the office?
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Yeah.
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So I definitely see a wide range of different types of acne, from teenagers all the way up to women going through menopause and dealing with hormonal acne in that realm.
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So I definitely see different ranges of it.
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There's many different ways to treat acne in home and in office.
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My favorite ones are chemical peels.
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I feel like that's a really great exfoliation, for the skin Gets really down deep in the pores.
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Because there's many different types of acne.
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It could be the inflamed, non-inflamed, cystic.
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You can see a wide range of them.
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So for home care-wise, I always recommend my client keeping up on the exfoliating property.
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Icing at home and especially like LED light has become very popular nowadays to help treat and heal it.
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So we're all about healing it and keeping it hydrated, because a common myth would be you know, we want to strip the barrier, use as much salicylic or mandelic to just get rid of it, but that's not getting down to the root cause.
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We want to hydrate and focus on the skin's health and microbiome health of it as well.
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Right, it's?
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so multifactorial, because I mean acne has multiple different causes.
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They're not just one cause of acne.
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So there's, you know, the chemical peels which help address the plugging of the pores, and then there's oil production, which tends to happen during certain times of our monthly cycle or during the teenage years, and that kind of collects the dead skin cells and plugs them even worse and then, once it bursts under the skin, then you have all that inflammation and bacteria.
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So, depending on the cause is how you kind of direct your treatment.
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Definitely so, like, how do you?
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Um, before we dive into the different types of chemical peels, like if someone comes in and they're struggling with acne, I always feel like the first thing I have to tell them is like you need to be patient and stick with something right, because people want to try a hundred things a quick fix.
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yeah, I always recommend, you know, three, three to four months is like the good buffer time to be like you're going to see some good results.
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But you've got to go through the purging phase.
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Your skin can get worse before it gets better and I think that's a really hard concept for some of my clients to gasp is because they think it's going to be that quick fix, is because they think it's going to be that quick fix.
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One peel is going to be the fix-all.
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But it's home care and I like to tell my clients it's an 80-20 rule.
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You know you want to have 80% home care and then your 20% treatment and care, because what you do at home is going to be your biggest change, right?
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It's sort of like if someone comes to you and you're the dental hygienist cleaning their teeth, they still have to brush their teeth at home.
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So if someone is struggling with acne, or even if they want prejuvenation, just say they're in their 20s or 30s, you know.
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Or even if they want anti-aging and a little reversal, like what's a good at-home skincare routine that you often recommend yeah.
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So you know the.
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You know your bread and butter is going to be a good double cleanse.
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What's a double cleanse?
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Yeah, so double cleanse is honestly one of my favorites.
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It's the best way to start your routine.
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You always start with like an oil-based cleanser to get rid of all that dead skin, the oil, the buildup of makeup.
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That's kind of like your sweeping, and then you'll go on with your second cleanse.
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That could be any cleanser that's good for your skin type, so a glycolic or just a cream-based one, and that's going to be your mopping.
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So you want to brush.
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You know you want to sweep first and then you want to mop the skin.
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So it's a little analogy.
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I always like to tell my clients because you got to do both to get a good slate to your skin.
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So you'd always start with the cleanse, go on with your toner next.
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That could be whatever goal you're trying to reach, and it's very customizable with that.
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And then, of course, serums and that's what the fun part is serums.
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You can do so many different mixology, so many different combinations.
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Moisturizer, of course, keeping up with the skin's moisture, hydration, and then our number one, sunscreen at the end for your day-to-day operations that's really nice.
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Yeah, so do you do a double cleanse in the morning or just at night to get the makeup off in the environmental?
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yeah, you know I I typically just do a double cleanse at night time.
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You can do it in the morning if sometimes, if people sweat a little bit more when they're sleeping or they just feel that layer on, I personally just like to do a good first cleanse in the morning time with either a gel or a lactic acid type of cleanser.
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I really get deep in the pores to prep my skin for.
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Yeah, I think that, like your point about the cleansing, is so essential, because I think you know we don't talk about cleanser a lot.
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Everybody wants to go to like the targeted, directed serums.
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But, like, having a good cleanser is so important in order to prep the skin to absorb the actives in the products and if we're not using the right cleanser, to your point, we can strip the skin barrier.
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So what I don't like people to feel is that tight feeling on their skin.
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So, like I like a creamy cleanser that actually is active and the way I can tell so, moon and Skin has created this kale protein cleanser that actually cleanses the skin.
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But when I take toner afterwards and I sweep the skin, I don't see much dirt left.
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So that's how I know my cleanser is doing a good job without feeling tight and raw or burning, because we want to listen to our skin and know it's not burning afterwards.
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right, yes, yeah, we want to, you know, treat it and keep it hydrated and protect that microbiome health.
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Because, yeah, exactly, if we strip it, your products and your serums aren't going to really do much for it after?
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Right, there's such a fine line where we're walking, where we're exfoliating and removing the dead skin cells so things can penetrate, but yet not stripping the skin barrier, so it's raw and irritated and we're getting a dermatitis.
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That's what I'm hearing from you, yes, so how do we know that we're in that spot?
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I think, just like what you said, if we're feeling that burning or that dryness and almost feeling like you're, if you like open your mouth and you feel it like tug, that's when I tell clients I'm like you know that might be the best cleanser for you.
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You know you want to keep that hydration.
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You want to feel your skin kind of have that bounce back to it, and if it's feeling too tight or almost flaky, then that might not be the one for you.
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And how about with exfoliation?
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So with exfoliation I, I mean, I've been doing this so long, right, so for myself, I know my skin.
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We we actually have to get to the point where we look for advice externally, but then we listen to our own body and how our own body responds, and listen to ourselves and intuitively know what we need.
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How do you direct your clients to determine that they need a little more exfoliation or a little exfoliation?
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Because with the seasons, with the seasons of our life, with our hormonal cycles, like all of those needs are going to change at different geographic environments.
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Like when I go to California, I need more exfoliation than in Arizona, where it's dry and my skin doesn't tolerate it.
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So how do you guide people as far as when to exfoliate, like what's a good rule?
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I always like to go in and feel the skin because I think that's how you're going to know what's best for your clients is feeling the skin, what it feels like and what it looks like.
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Sometimes if they have that buildup of texture on, then I would like to recommend a physical exfoliant.
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I could have some different beads or different properties in there to give a good scrub, different properties in there to give a good scrub.
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But that also goes back to our acne clients, because if you have that inflamed acne you don't want to do a scrub on the skin Because that's just going to irritate it, spread more bacteria.
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So then you would go in with a different type of exfoliant, like a chemical.
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I'd mainly go with chemical, for sure for the inflamed acne.
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But yeah, I guess just feeling the skin and seeing the texture and what would be a best one for them.
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So you're, you're describing feeling the skin and knowing the texture, and what I hear from people a lot is they're like I'm so dry, I'm so dry, my skin's so dry, and I think it's often misunderstood that when your skin is dry, the moisturizer is not going to penetrate until you exfoliate off those dead skin cells, because the dead skin cells are like almost insulating your healthy skin below from absorbing any moisturizer.
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So what you're saying is like exfoliate first, but not to the point of irritation.
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Exactly, a good key would be to say like two to three times a week kind of got to feel your skin to see what it feels like, because if you're doing too much exfoliation, like we said, you can over strip it and you're going to feel that like irritation and sometimes you can get more acne from that if you're over stripping and you're over exfoliating.
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Okay, I want to go back to the purging.
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Like, how do you define purging?
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The purging, like, how do you define purging?
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Because it's a word that we use to kind of explain to people that you know, when I squeeze my skin in the deeper layers, there's pimples already there and we need to give it a good two to three months to kind of surface to the top.
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But I think dermatologists overall I'm not one of them, but they don't like to hear the word purge because it's it's not actually a purge but it's sort of a resurfacing.
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So how do you explain to your clients, like, what, what to expect with the purging?
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Because it's not like the acne is getting worse from your treatment, it's just coming to the surface quicker than it would have anyway.
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Exactly and I actually like that.
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You say that's resurfacing, because that's really what it's coming coming to the surface Because we're doing those chemical exfoliation, you're speeding up the cellular turnover of the skin.
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So what's trapped underneath the skin and was kind of hidden will come back to the surface because we're exfoliating and we're speeding up that cellular turnover in the skin.
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So it's coming up and that's the frustrating part, because it's almost like oh, my skin's looking worse, but it's coming to the surface faster so we can heal it and treat it yeah, so the next cycle will be clear and that's the biggest mistake I see.
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Tell me, if you see this, where people will.
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They'll get into the routine and be really committed for a couple weeks and then they're purging.
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You know the purging is happening, or the surfacing, as you mentioned, is coming and their acne might get a little bit worse because you're turning over skin cells quicker so you're making those pimples that would have come up anyway.
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All come up kind of quickly and then they want to switch skin care, and confused angry skin is a result of too many products.
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Yes, so a lot of clients will try those new products and feel that they're, you know, like, oh, it's not working, it's getting worse.
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But it's a good rule of thumb that you've got to at least do a month, try out your products, let it absorb into your skin and do its job first before you completely give up on it, because sometimes if you're using too high of an ingredient or something that doesn't agree with your skin, it'll break out everywhere in a way.
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So you kind of get that like almost allergy and reactive um Resolve if you're using too much too fast.
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And then you get to the point where everything's irritating you right?
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Yeah, if you're trying too many things all at once and your skin's just going to freak out.
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Okay, so morning cleanse, night double cleanse.
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Morning, vitamin C, then a targeted serum, then a moisturizer sunscreen, yes.
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Night what are we doing after our double cleanse at night?
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Yeah, so at nighttime we want to heal the skin.
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It's always morning time, like we said with the vitamin C and sunscreen, we want to protect it.
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Nighttime is personally my favorite time is when we're getting to heal it and protect it.
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So nighttime I always like to go in with a little bit more thicker ingredients.
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So a little bit thicker moisturizer, a oil-based, to really lock in that hydration.
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You can pretty much do the same serums and toner that you would do in the morning time, but I would add more hydration into it, kind of really lock it all in in there yeah, well, it's interesting because the science supports this too.
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So it we have our circadian clock and in the morning we want to support protection and then at night, help with the cellular renewal and regeneration and we actually have more trans epidermal water loss, where we're losing more hydration at night.
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So that's exactly when you want to like, lock it in.
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It's like the women in the 1950s with all the cold cream all over their face, like that's what we're that what we?
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They had it right back then, except we have better products now that are more elegantly formulated.
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Okay, so that's at home and everyone, no matter how often they come to see you, you want them to be doing something at home to support their treatment with you.
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Yes, 100%, because, like I said, the 80-20 rule, that's an always good rule of thumb.
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I would rather my clients be on a great home care regimen than come and see me in office.
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If that's in their budget, I would love for them to have the home care set up because, like we said, if you're going to go to the dentist, get your teeth cleaned and then not brush it at home, what's going to happen Sounds crazy.
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Yeah, exactly Right.
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So home care is going to be super huge.
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If you want to take extra steps and do like a face mask or more exfoliation, or add in that LED light, different modalities, you can definitely do that and that's just going to enhance your results and further enhance your progress into your skin.
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Okay, so it probably will expedite it.
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So when somebody's doing a targeted treatment, you'll have them come in a little bit more often, and then maintenance is a little bit different.
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Expand on that.
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Yeah, so it's depending on how quick clients want to get their skincare fixed and what their goals are.
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You know, I have a lot of clients that come in that are either getting married or have a big event coming in, so they want to target their skincare faster.
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So we would go in like every two weeks rather than once a month to really get that fast paced results, and then after we'll go into the maintenance realm and maybe that's once a month or, you know, every other month, doing a facial and then microneedling or something like that to enhance it for their goals.
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Let's talk about the chemical peels a little bit more and then we'll dive into the facial and the microneedling, like what procedures people can do before an event, versus to kind of stimulate collagen or treat acne.
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So when you're doing chemical peels which I think chemical peels don't get the attention they deserve, because they are really really effective at helping people with brown spots, with fine lines and wrinkles, with acne.
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But you know we have lasers out nowadays that are like a more sexy kind of like therapy, yeah, but yet chemical peels are more and I find them almost to be as effective, except for broken blood vessels.
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I find them as effective when they're done correctly by someone who knows what they're doing.
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So if someone comes in and they want a chemical peel or a series of chemical peels, how do you decide which chemical?
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I hate the word chemical.
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I always think we need to have a better word for these acids than chemical.
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But like what?
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How do you decide which acid to use, whether it's mandelic or salicylic or glycolic?
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How do you decide which acid to use for their chemical peel, based on their targeted treatment?
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yeah, so there's a variety of different peels that we can use, which is great because we have options, because, um, it can be for pigmentation.
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If they want to target that more, I guess, going down to what they want to target more and particularly, you would go in with.
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I like to my approach.
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I like to go a little bit on the lighter side to get started and then go into the heavier peels, because you don't know how the skin is going to react to their first time chemical peel.
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So you want to go a little bit on the lighter side.
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That could be a lower percent of mandelic or lactic acid and then you can bump it up and, you know, use some with TCA or any other higher ingredient acid that you can have onto the skin.
00:20:17.750 --> 00:20:19.215
You keep mentioning mandelic acid.
00:20:19.215 --> 00:20:20.279
It seems to be a favorite.
00:20:20.361 --> 00:20:21.124
Oh it is, I skin.
00:20:21.124 --> 00:20:21.846
You keep mentioning mandelic acid.
00:20:21.846 --> 00:20:22.367
It seems to be a favorite.
00:20:22.367 --> 00:20:22.750
Oh it is, I know.
00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:24.779
I always mention mandelic because that's just a very popular one.
00:20:24.800 --> 00:20:25.545
It's from almonds.
00:20:25.970 --> 00:20:32.441
Yes, it's an almond-derived ingredient which is great for giving oxygen to the pores.
00:20:32.441 --> 00:20:35.775
It really goes down deep into there, so that's a good one.
00:20:35.775 --> 00:20:44.914
Salicylic, I would say that's going to be your acne fighter, for the non-inflamed acne, so those little bumps that you can get now and then.
00:20:44.914 --> 00:20:52.701
So if I have a client coming in and you know they struggle a little bit with acne, but not too much, they just get kind of that texture.
00:20:52.701 --> 00:20:59.172
I like to do some salicylic because that's going to be a little bit on the lighter side but also give you that good results as well.
00:20:59.172 --> 00:21:11.423
But when it comes to like pigmentation, adding in some like tca, um chemical, that's usually one of my favorites for pigment and rejuvenating for anti-aging I love that.
00:21:11.604 --> 00:21:27.519
Okay, I love that so much and I like that you mentioned starting out low, like start low, go, because we live in a blended world where, like I'm part Spanish, I'm part Irish, so I have red, sensitive skin and hyperpigmentation.
00:21:27.578 --> 00:21:37.361
And for anyone listening, what I often see and I don't know if you see this too is that people will come in and they wait maybe a little bit too long, and then they want quick results and they go go really hard.
00:21:37.361 --> 00:21:48.520
But if sort of you want to look at how you heal with a scratch, so when we get a scratch or a burn or a pimple, does it heal with a pink scar or does it heal with a brown scar?
00:21:48.520 --> 00:22:06.267
And if you go too aggressive with chemical peels or laser or microneedling or really anything in the office, you might get post-inflammatory erythema or post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation, which is basically that type of scarring that you end up getting after inflammation.
00:22:06.267 --> 00:22:22.192
So by starting slow and low, you're going to give the skin a chance to like accommodate, basically, and then you can go a little bit deeper once it hardens, as opposed to going too much and then getting hyperpigmentation that's going to last six to eight months.
00:22:22.492 --> 00:22:25.019
Definitely, and that also goes back to home care.
00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:32.053
I wouldn't ever do an aggressive peel on someone if they're not doing the home care, because that's going to be your most important part.
00:22:32.053 --> 00:22:49.298
So if you're doing this aggressive peel and you're coming home and just slabbing anything on your face, you're not going to get those results and the peel is probably not going to do as good of a job as it could have been if you're using the right ingredients and giving that skin a prep and, um, you know heal it afterwards.
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:51.609
So how do you like to prep people before a chem peel?
00:22:52.070 --> 00:22:55.214
Yeah, so definitely for like their first time appointment.
00:22:55.214 --> 00:22:59.460
I like to go in with a glycolic toner.
00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:05.086
That kind of preps the skin and you can see if they get reactive.
00:23:05.086 --> 00:23:11.022
So oftentimes if the skin is ready for a peel and you put that toner on top, it'll be fine.
00:23:11.022 --> 00:23:22.971
You won't get any itchiness or tingliness, maybe like a one out of five, but if you're feeling like that three, that can mean the skin's compromised, the barrier is a little irritated.
00:23:22.971 --> 00:23:31.657
So then I'd be more weary about doing a deeper chemical peel if their skin isn't technically ready for it that's a really good test.
00:23:31.679 --> 00:23:32.661
I've never heard that before.
00:23:32.661 --> 00:23:33.530
I like that a lot.
00:23:33.530 --> 00:23:35.434
Yeah, how about?
00:23:35.434 --> 00:23:37.499
How do you feel about retinol before peels?
00:23:37.499 --> 00:23:41.877
Because I I hear you know people like to be dogmatic on either way.
00:23:41.877 --> 00:23:56.862
You know like, no, don't do it because it will make the peel go deeper, and I was always trained to do retinoids before because it removes the dead skin cells and it makes the chemical peel more even in penetration, and I could see both sides of the argument, you know.
00:23:56.862 --> 00:23:58.271
So like what are your thoughts on that?
00:23:58.551 --> 00:24:00.776
You know I'm not opposed to it as well.
00:24:00.776 --> 00:24:04.221
I think it could be a really good prep, as you say, for the skin.
00:24:04.221 --> 00:24:16.191
I only just like to talk lines, maybe one to two days to give your skin a little bit of a break so it doesn't get as irritated and the chemicals kind of don't mix together from like the leftover retinol on the skin.
00:24:16.191 --> 00:24:19.257
So, like I said, I'm not opposed to it as well.
00:24:19.257 --> 00:24:25.719
I would say, just two days before, off a retinol and then you're good to go that's okay, and then after.
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:31.134
So I have a feeling that after this podcast episode, people are going to be like I want a chemical peel right.
00:24:31.174 --> 00:24:41.192
so just to give them an idea of what to expect, with sort of a lunchtime peel or you know, a peel that's a freshening peel, what I always okay, I tell people.
00:24:41.192 --> 00:24:54.336
Tell me if I'm wrong here, because this is how my skin reacts and how I've seen patients over the years Like it almost feels like hey, gabby, there's food on your face, like there's that light flaking, but you're not exfoliating in sheets with, like a light chemical peel.
00:24:54.435 --> 00:25:03.846
So, what do you usually tell people like as far as the pre, the pre, and then what to expect that night, what not to do, and then when can they return to their normal skincare routine afterwards?
00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:04.451
Yeah.
00:25:04.451 --> 00:25:05.894
So I would say the prep.
00:25:05.894 --> 00:25:21.559
I would give them advice on keeping the skin hydrated and healthy before you come in, so you don't want to come in with your skin super dry or irritated from different products, especially not sunburned or irritated in that realm.
00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:24.156
Afterwards I always just prep them.
00:25:24.156 --> 00:25:32.479
You can get some dryness because we are stimulating the cell turnover of the skin, so you can experience some of that dryness and flakiness.
00:25:32.479 --> 00:25:36.750
But it's all about how you apply your products on afterwards.
00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:55.411
So keeping up the moisturizer and sunscreen because that's going to be number one, because our skin can get sensitized after a peel, so you want to protect it with the sunscreen barrier so it's not getting irritated and you're losing all that progress you made with the peel Right.
00:25:55.750 --> 00:26:12.077
So we're basically trying to exfoliate off the top layer of the skin at a more rapid rate than it would exfoliate itself, and that sends signals down to the stem cells at the base of the epidermis to kind of like hey, let's rev up and make fresh skin cells and that's how we get like more cell renewal.
00:26:12.337 --> 00:26:19.019
Yeah, definitely, and that's definitely what people are looking for when they're coming to peels is they want that glow.
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:25.377
You know they want to feel their skin to be glowy and soft and supple.
00:26:25.377 --> 00:26:29.306
So that's peels are in that realm, are going to be very good for that.
