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Welcome to Listen to your Skin by Moon and Skin, the podcast where science meets nature to celebrate the story of your skin.
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Your skin is a living canvas, ever-evolving, deeply personal and uniquely yours.
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Each week, we'll dive into the science of healthy skin, share empowering stories and uncover transformative self-care rituals.
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We're here to help you embrace every phase of your journey with confidence and care.
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How often do I really need to wash my face?
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So I really think that everyone needs to wash their face twice a day because at night obviously we want to get off our makeup and we want to get off the toxins and the dirt and the debris from the day.
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But a lot of people don't think they need to clean in the morning also.
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But we do need to cleanse with a gentle cleanser in the morning because our skin is our biggest detox organ.
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So at night when we're sleeping, we're basically extruding toxins and we're extruding dirt and debris out of our pores.
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So we want to get that off so our daily skincare can penetrate.
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How about vitamin C?
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I hear a lot about people you know saying that I need to have vitamin C.
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Is that true?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
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Vitamin C is just a core thing that pretty much everyone needs in their skincare regimen and you want to make sure you're applying it to work with your circadian clock, so during the daytime, as soon as our eyes and our skin sees the light, we are in a protective mode.
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So our body basically is protecting us from any environmental toxins or allergens, and vitamin C will help with some of the free radicals that we're exposed to that get through our sunscreen, even to prevent DNA breakdown, and it helps support the healthy structure of our collagen in the skin.
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So I want people to be applying vitamin C every morning and you apply it face, neck, chest and the back of your hands.
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I usually have people sweep the back of their hands with it after cleansing first step in the morning and then let it dry completely, then apply your moisturizer, then your sunscreen.
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So I've bought vitamin C before and then let it dry completely, then apply your moisturizer, then your sunscreen.
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So I've bought vitamin C before and then, after like a little bit, it turned like brown.
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Is that normal, or can I prevent that?
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Yeah, that's such a good point.
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I hear that so often, so I'm so glad you brought that up, because typically all vitamin Cs are not created equal.
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So the active form of vitamin C is L-ascorbic acid.
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So the active form of vitamin C is L-ascorbic acid and the way it works it's very unstable because it basically protects you from the free radicals.
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So L-ascorbic acid is very unstable.
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It is broken down by light, by heat and by oxygen.
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So the longer it sits on your counter, the more it's likely to turn from the clear color when it's active to the brown color and become inactive.
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So scientists have created other forms of vitamin C that are more active.
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There's THD ascorbate and there's sodium ascorbyl phosphate.
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I preferentially like the sodium ascorbyl phosphate form of vitamin C because it converts to L-ascorbic acid in the body, making it effective by helping protect you from the free radical damage, and it also is great for anyone who's predisposed to getting acne from vitamin C, which I hear about a lot, or sensitive skin.
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So I love looking for a sodium ascorbyl phosphate form of vitamin C.
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How about retin-A or retinol?
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What is the difference between the two and when might I use that?
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Yeah, so retinoids as opposed to vitamin C.
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You want to use those at night.
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So, as I mentioned with vitamin C, when we wake up in the morning and our eyes see sunlight and our skin also has photoreceptors which are sensitive to light, we turn into a protective mode.
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And the opposite is true at night.
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So at night, when we don't have any light which is why it's important to sleep in a dark room the melatonin rises and we're in a regenerative phase.
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So there's such a thing as beauty sleep.
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So, as our body is renewing and regenerating, our liver ticks up and our skin cells want to renew and regenerate, and vitamin A products, whether they're in the form of retinol or retinoic acid, tretinoin, which retinol converts into in the skin, they help with that renewal process.
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So tretinoin is a prescription that can be prescribed and it's the active form of vitamin A in the skin.
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It's also tends to be a little bit harsh on the skin and cause a little bit of peeling and redness.
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So I like people to start low and go slow and start with a retinol and gradually increase to every night, and if they could tolerate every night and they're still wanting more effects, then they can go to a prescription strength.
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But honestly I find that if someone is able to tolerate retinol every single night as your first step after cleansing, before a moisturizer, they end up getting really good results in improvement of fine lines, wrinkles, pigmentation, reduction of the clogged pores and acne after about three to six months.
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So that's what I have people do.
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Wow, I was just going to ask you about the timing.
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So how long does it take to really start to see results?
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Yeah.
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So when we're talking about increasing collagen in the skin, we need to give it three months, because we're sending signals to rev up the fibroblasts, which are the cells that produce collagen in the dermis, and it takes about three months optimally six months to see results.
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So there are studies showing that if you use a lower-strength retinol compared to a higher-strength retinol, you get to the same endpoint at six months.
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You just get there a little bit quicker to a higher strength retinol.
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You get to the same endpoint at six months.
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You just get there a little bit quicker with a higher strength.
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But unfortunately a lot of people have irritation.
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So that's where we want to look at the formula.
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What is the formulation?
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And there's some really cool technology.
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There's liposomal technology that we now have, where the retinol is encapsulated by a phospholipid so it can penetrate through the epidermis, into the deep layers of the epidermis and even the dermis to stimulate the fibroblasts without causing all of that peeling and redness and roughness that nobody likes, Because we recommend retinoids all the time.
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But what happens is people give up after a couple weeks because they're red and they're raw.
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So it always goes back to the formulations.
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Things are not created equal.
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Back to the vitamin C a little bit.
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You know back when I bought vitamin C before I broke out really bad.
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Is that normal?
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Yeah, it's not normal, but really, what is normal, right?
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No one's normal.
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We're all our own person.
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So, just because your best friend tolerates it and you don't, you need to listen to your skin, right?
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So we all need to listen and be attuned to our skin, and what works for your best friend might not work for you, just like what works for you might not work for me, and vice versa.
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So, for anyone who has sensitivities or anyone who is prone to getting acne, I want them to look at the formulation of their vitamin C and look for the form of vitamin C in being sodium ascorbyl phosphate.
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I know it's a long word, it's SAP, but you're going to want to avoid the forms that say L-ascorbic acid and look for sodium ascorbyl phosphate because that's going to be less inflammatory, less likely to cause acne.
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So I'm perimenopausal, so my skin is obviously changing and I feel like my hormones are changing.
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Do you have any recommendations for how you know I would work with all of these things in my, in my system?
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Yeah, for sure For sure, you know, and the word perimenopause is a word we weren't using many years ago.
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It's, and it's kind of everywhere now.
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And perimenopause is really hard to define.
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It's just the time of your life, which can be 10 to 15 years, from 35 to 50, or even 40 to 55, until you reach menopause.
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Menopause has a bizarre definition it's basically going a full year without having a period, but in the meantime, during those years, our hormones are up and down and up and down and fluctuating more than they normally would be during a normal menstrual cycle.
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So it's really important to listen to your skin and know when you're more predisposed to acne, when you're more oily, and modify things Absolutely.
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Everyone needs a vitamin C and everyone needs a retinol.
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So vitamin C in the morning, retinol at night.
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If you tend to be more dry and more prone to irritation, I would make sure you have more moisturizer on your skin, particularly at night, and I'm such a minimalist I want to look for moisturizers that have multiple functions.
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So why do I really need an eye cream and then face moisturizer, then a neck moisturizer, when I can find one moisturizer that works for all of the areas?
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Take the leftover on my hands and sweep the back of my hands every night.
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So all of those areas are being corrected, equally aging gracefully together, right?
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So that's what I look for.
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And then if someone is irritated with retinol, like just say, before you were perimenopausal, you were tolerating your retinol every single night with no problem, and now you're noticing that you might have a little bit more of a barrier, dysfunction and disruption and more irritation.
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I don't want you to give up on it.
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Maybe go every other night or do the sandwich technique, where you apply moisturizer, let it soak in, quench your skin, apply your retinol as you always have.
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It will go where it needs to go on the receptors, let it dry and then put another layer of moisturizer on, and I find that that can really benefit a lot of people rather than just giving up on it Can.
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I use the same moisturizer in the morning that I do at night.
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People rather than just giving up on it, can I?
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use the same moisturizer in the morning that I do at night?
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Yeah, it depends on your skin type.
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So ideally you can.
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So I tend to be pretty oily, so I don't use a moisturizer in the morning.
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I use sunscreen in the morning after my vitamin C, and then, if I'm dealing with pigmentation, I'll put a pigment corrector on after vitamin C, before sunscreen.
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We always layer thinnest to thickest, so when you're applying products, you apply your thinnest serum and then you go thicker as you apply, with your sunscreen being the last step before your makeup.
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And most people I find in the winter absolutely need to have a moisturizer twice a day because we're reaching homeostasis with our environment all of the time.
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So the air is drier and we're going to be drier because we are one with we are one with our environment, right.
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So I do recommend a moisturizer, the same one, twice a day.
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If you tend to be more dry, I'll have you boost your moisturizer at night.
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Either go for a thicker moisturizer or have that be the only time of day you use your moisturizer.
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Or take some mineral water from La Roche-Posay makes a nice mineral water spray and these have prebiotics and probiotics in them and spray your face and then take a liberal amount of moisturizer and apply it and it soaks in and pushes the moisture in your skin and that's a way to boost it, rather than putting something oily that could break you out at night.
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Do I use the same cleanser in the morning and at night?
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I do.
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Yeah, I do the same cleanser morning and at night.
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Like as I mentioned, I'm a minimalist, so I think why have so many products when you can have one product do a lot of things?
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So I'll use the same moisturizer and recommend that for most of my patients the same one in the morning and night.
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If they do wear a lot of makeup, then I'll have them do a double cleanse with an oil-based cleanser first and then their more medical grade, results-driven moisturizer that might have some active botanicals in there.
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Then I'll have them use that afterwards.
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Or I'll have them use micellar water first and then use their cleanser afterwards and the cleansers I recommend.
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I like to be on the skin for two full minutes, so I'll have them apply it and massage their lymphatics and rub the cleanser in and let it penetrate and nourish the skin for a full two minutes.
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And we really want to use a good cleanser that removes makeup, removes impurities, removes dirt anything that's extruded from the pores at night or during the day and oils, but does not strip the skin.
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So we don't want a cleanser where your skin feels tight or raw or red or burning.
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It should never feel that way afterwards.
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It's too strong.
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I have also younger daughters.
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How old should you be when you start adopting vitamin C and retinol?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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I think 2024 was a year of overuse of products and 2025 is going to be more minimalism, and it's for a good reason.
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You know there's just we don't need to live in excess for any reasons, and we really saw that with the teens.
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We saw them doing so many steps and I think it actually disrupts the skin barrier, it disrupts the skin microbiome and it's not a good idea.
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So when you're in your teens, a good cleanser, a good moisturizer and a good sunscreen is really all that is recommended.
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As someone goes into their 20s, that's when I start having them use a vitamin C as an amazing preventative measure.
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Absolutely 30s, 40s, 50s, and then retinol same thing.
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Mid-20s is a great time, but teenagers not so much.
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It's a little bit of a waste of your money.
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And how about if you start breaking out?
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Is there a solution for that?
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Yeah.
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So you know retinol and tretinoin we use for acne, so it works for acne because it helps turn over the skin cells.
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So as we get older our skin gets lazy, our stem cells get tired and they don't turn over as quickly.
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So a lot of times people think they have dry skin, but what it is is the skin is just not refreshing and turning over as quickly.
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So there's a couple ways, a couple things we can do with that.
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We can add exfoliants to help exfoliate off the top dead skin cell layer and when you exfoliate the skin it sends signals down to the stem cells to say, hey, rev, rev up, make some more fresh skin.
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So we're kind of sending those signals that aren't happening.
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We can also use stem cells and I love products that have vitamin C with stem cells in them, because that will help send those signals to rev up fresh stem cells while also protecting the skin from free radicals.
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So less products containing more technology is always what we're looking for.
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You can put stem cells in your products From plants.
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Yes, Wow.
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How does that work?
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Yeah, it works by signaling the human skin, and we used to think that plants didn't signal human stem cells, and they actually do.
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Wow, that's incredible.
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Do you treat body acne the same way as you would treat face acne?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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So I always look for the cause.
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So what is the cause of the body acne?
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And is it folliculitis irritation of the hair follicle or is it actually acne Typically on the body?
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What I usually see is friction, occlusion.
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So just say someone's an athlete and they're wearing non-breathable clothing and there's a lot of friction to a particular area.
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I'll see acne in those areas like the back or the butt.
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But in your back, knee right, and the other reason I see acne on the back when it's not someone who just has regular teenage acne is from hair conditioner.
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I'll see certain types of hair products cause acne around the hairline and around the lower back I mean the upper back when they are rinsing their hair.
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So you have to ask people what their lifestyle is like.
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Are they going to hot yoga and sweating and then wearing their clothes for an hour afterwards, or are they going home and showering off?
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Because if we sweat a lot and we rub and then we occlude or we block our sweat glands, we're going to get acne in those areas.
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So before I just start throwing medicine at someone, I want to find out what are their behaviors that might be contributing to forming the acne.
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It's a little overwhelming thinking about all the different ingredients and the products.
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How do I really know that I'm getting a good vitamin C?
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Yeah, I know, I know, and over the years I've seen so many people bring in buckets and bags of stuff to me and they weren't being effective at all and they wasted so much money.
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So this is how I break it down With vitamin C, what you want to look for is you want to look for a formulation that contains sodium, ascorbyl phosphate, especially if you're prone to acne or sensitive skin.
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You want, if you can find, something that has plant stem cells.
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You're going to get a twofer.
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So you're going to have one product in one step that stimulates stem cells and also helps protect you from free radical damage, and then find a product that has some hydrating capabilities, like hyaluronic acid in it, especially plant-derived botanical hyaluronic acid is a very elegant formulation.
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And then what also makes the vitamin C stable and more potent is when it has ferulic acid and vitamin E added to it.
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So those are the things you want to look for With all of the ingredients it's a little hard to keep track of.
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How do I know that I'm getting the right retinol Right?
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Yeah, so I would always start with a retinol as opposed to a tretinoin or a prescription strength vitamin A product.
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And with retinol there's some great technology out there, so I like people to look for a retinol that's a liposomal retinol, so basically the retinol, the active molecule, is encapsulated in phospholipids so it's able to penetrate through the epidermis and get to the deeper layers of the epidermis to rev up the stem cells and also into the fibroblasts to stimulate collagen from forming without causing irritation to the top layer of the skin.
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The other thing with retinol is I find that people the top layer of the skin.
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The other thing with retinol is I find that people apply too much to the skin.
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So a small amount the size of a pea or a pearl, dot the forehead, each cheek, the chin and the chest and blend it in, avoiding the creases around the eyes, the nose, the corners of the mouth and the crease in the neck, and doing that three times a week After two weeks if you're not having irritation or peeling or redness, which you really shouldn't see from liposomal retinol, because it's encapsulated and it's slowly delivered over time and it's super stable.
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Just start slow, start low, go slow and after two weeks go to four times a week, another week five times a week until you're able to tolerate it every night.
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We're in this for the long game and you really see the best results with retinol at six months.
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So you want to stick with it.
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So liposomal retinol is the one that I want.
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Yep Liposomal is a special technology where the retinol is encapsulated and it gets delivered to where it needs to be in the skin, and it's super stable.
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So you know what you're getting.
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You're getting it where it needs to go.
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So, for the first time ever, I found a moisturizer that has an exfoliator in it.
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What is that about?
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Yeah, that's such a great question.
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So this is, I think, brilliant technology, because a lot of times people are so dry and they're putting moisturizer, moisturizer, moisturizer on their.
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It's just not penetrating because as we get older, the top layer of our skin just like kind of sticks around and that's what makes us look dull and dry.
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So by having very low levels of alpha hydroxy, beta hydroxy acid, like glycolic acid, salicylic acid, it will loosen up those corneocytes, the top layer of the skin that's dead, so that you can actually get infusion of the moisturizer, of the hyaluronic acid, of all of the hydrating properties of a product, as well as any botanical extracts like centella asiatica or mushroom extract that can be lightening and brightening things like that.
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I was going to bring it back to the oily skin part, because you said this is good for oily skin too, right?
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So I have oily skin and I don't always use like a moisturizer.
00:19:57.642 --> 00:20:01.979
Is this something that I can use also as a moisturizer that won't make me extra?
00:20:02.058 --> 00:20:02.319
oily.
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:08.359
Yeah, that's one of the biggest myths is people who have oily skin think they don't need moisturizer and, at the very least, okay.
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:13.280
Just say you run a little high cortisol during the day, like I do, and you tend to get a little bit greasy.
00:20:13.280 --> 00:20:32.823
You may not necessarily need a moisturizer during the day, but at night, everyone, everyone, everyone needs a moisturizer because we lose a lot of water at night or we have increased trans epidermal water loss loss and we lose a lot of moisture from our skin at night and your skin can ironically compensate by making more oil if you don't hydrate at night.
00:20:32.823 --> 00:20:48.162
So absolutely you want to look for a moisturizer containing hyaluronic acid that's lightweight and non-comedogenic if you have oily skin, something that's light and hydrating, without being necessarily cream or oil-based did you say that there's mushrooms in this moisturizer?
00:20:48.471 --> 00:20:49.556
So I love nature.
00:20:49.556 --> 00:20:56.480
I think all the best secrets in the world are from nature and as she lets us discover them.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:06.079
Slowly, over time we will find the properties and reishi mushroom extract can be lightening and even out uneven skin tone.
00:21:06.800 --> 00:21:09.384
Where does the name moon and skin come from?
00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:21.441
Yeah, so moon and skin is basically encouraging all of us to work with the harmony and cycles of nature around us and within our body.
00:21:21.441 --> 00:21:23.346
So we have a circadian cycle.
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Morning and night, our bodies in different metabolic processes, so when we hit the light in the morning we have our circadian clock turn on and we're in a different mode than at night when we're renewing.
00:21:34.515 --> 00:21:43.260
And then, as women, we have our infradian cycle, which is our monthly cycle, where our hormones evolve and they change every single day.
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Unlike a man, that's 24 hours and we want to work with that cycle as well.
00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:54.311
And then we have the seasons and with every season our body is reaching homeostasis with those seasons.
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So we also want to learn to work with the rhythms of the seasons.
00:21:58.846 --> 00:22:00.531
And then we have the seasons of our life.
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So the seasons of our life, because what we need when we're teen is different from our 30s and 50s.
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So the skincare line will evolve with the seasons of our life, because what we need when we're teen is different from our 30s and 50s.
00:22:07.573 --> 00:22:11.765
So the skincare line will evolve with the seasons of our life and the seasons of where we live.
00:22:12.066 --> 00:22:15.095
So I can use the same moisturizer in the morning and at night.
00:22:15.455 --> 00:22:24.691
Yes, you can, and you can also use it around your eyes and your neck, your chest, and I always, always, always, with every product, I recommend sweeping the back of your hands.
00:22:24.691 --> 00:22:28.137
We forget this and we want this to all age together, right, so?
00:22:28.618 --> 00:22:32.492
yeah, and this is a moisturizer that I, at 40, can use and my daughter at 20.
00:22:32.492 --> 00:22:34.017
Yes, you, can wow.
00:22:34.037 --> 00:22:35.901
Yeah, I mean, let's be honest.
00:22:35.901 --> 00:22:37.751
Sometimes at 40 you need more of a booster.
00:22:37.751 --> 00:22:41.921
So at 20 she may only need it at night and you may need it twice a day.
00:22:41.921 --> 00:22:55.773
And then, if you want to boost it more, you can spray your face with some prebiotic, probiotic mineral water like La Roche-Posay or Vichy, and then take a little bit more than she would and soak it in at night.
00:22:56.154 --> 00:22:57.898
Would she use retinol as well at 20?
00:22:57.919 --> 00:22:59.362
years old, it really depends.
00:22:59.362 --> 00:23:02.654
So I'm a minimalist, I don't like to put a lot on people's faces.
00:23:02.654 --> 00:23:08.471
So if somebody struggles with acne or blackheads in their 20s, we always use retinoids.
00:23:08.471 --> 00:23:16.355
In the 20s we use it in the form of Retin-A or Tretinoin as a prescription strength which can be really harsh and stripping on the skin.
00:23:16.355 --> 00:23:19.261
So retinol absolutely recommend.
00:23:19.261 --> 00:23:28.563
I don't recommend it during pregnancy or breastfeeding because it does affect cell turnover, so theoretically it can affect cell turnover in a baby, so it's not recommended during those times.
00:23:28.563 --> 00:23:37.512
But it's a very safe product that's been around since the seventies and it's proven to help with fine lines and wrinkles, acne plug, pores, lifting off pigmentation.
00:23:37.873 --> 00:23:42.001
So, dr J, you helped create this formulation of moisturizer.
00:23:42.001 --> 00:23:42.804
I did.
00:23:43.269 --> 00:23:43.471
Yeah.
00:23:43.471 --> 00:23:57.845
So I really wanted to intentionally create a moisturizer that was good for all skin types, and one of the things that I think is often overlooked with a moisturizer is it might be a good quality moisturizer, yet it's not penetrating through the skin.
00:23:57.845 --> 00:24:09.185
So we needed to add a little bit of salicylic acid and glycolic acid at a very low level nothing that's going to feel like a chemical peel or peel your skin at a low level to loosen up the dead skin cells.
00:24:09.185 --> 00:24:23.915
So once the dead skin cells are loosened up and they're no longer insulating your skin from actually having penetration of the moisturizer, this hydrating moisturizer that's not comedogenic, not acne-forming, can penetrate, so it's a really cool product.
00:24:23.915 --> 00:24:37.497
It has a lot of antioxidants like centella asiatica, dandelion root, schisandra, green tea in it, and it also has a reishi mushroom extract that's really good for evening out skin tone.
00:24:38.179 --> 00:24:42.811
So tell me how did this partnership happen and what brought you to this point.
00:24:43.133 --> 00:24:57.705
Yeah, so I'm at a point in my life where I only work with excellent people that have good intentions on making the world a better place, and I've helped create dozens of skincare lines before, and that wasn't always the case.
00:24:57.705 --> 00:25:18.659
A lot of times, people just wanted to make money, because the skincare industry is a really big industry it's a multi-billion dollar industry and I want to only align with people who want to educate people to become empowered to take care of their health, and that's where I found my current people my family.
